-----------------
poster: Ogg
subject: Rejuvenating a Wonderfully Themed Guild
date: Mon Apr 28 08:17:16 2008
Hey everyone! This post is just to spark some new discussion on a guild that took a bit of a downturn a while back in membership but has recently recruited a few die-hard members. We wanna talk about reasonable alterations, cosmetic or substantive, that would make the guild more fun and more desirable :).
I think those of us who are stayin' shifter love the theme of the guild. It's fun and creative and flavorful. So, why aren't there more active shifters? A month ago there were essentially none. There was a short "bandwagon movement" where many people went shifter for twolf parties but most of the active ones have gone back to an eq reinc that can also solo/party exp. Now we have a handful of shifters with about 3 dlords that are remotely active (and that term is used somewhat loosely). Finally, the dlords that are active barely use the dlord form itself. So, the question is again, why aren't there more shifters and dlords???
Well, I would like to start out by simply stating the obvious. Shifters have a set of penalties and benefits compared to other guilds. We pay a penalty in that we are never wanted in normal eq and only wanted in exp parties as a last resort (or if the leader is nice). If we want to use dlord form we pay an additional price in gems, a difficult quest, and the complete inability to party at all. We get the benefit of not needing to buy/maintain equipment. We also are, supposedly, superior at soloing. If we are in dragon form, we supposedly get an even larger bonus to our soloing ability in exchange for gems and any partying ability at all. So, why doesn't dlord get used?
I'm very curious and interested to hear everyone's opinions on this topic!
-----------------
poster: Silverquick
subject: Re: Rejuvenating a Wonderfully Themed Guild
date: Mon Apr 28 20:43:20 2008
Speaking only for myself, I'm only active in bursts because I just
don't have a lot of spare time to play, not because this guild is
turning me off. I love it!
If I could add one thing... hmmm... well, if this MUD ever develops
a significant amount of true underwater area, I mean where land
races can't breathe without spells and stuff, aquatic forms would
be neat to have...
-----------------
poster: Quillz
subject: >Rejuvenating a Wonderfully Themed Guild
date: Mon Apr 28 21:03:17 2008
On Mon Apr 28 08:17:16 2008 Ogg wrote post #1:
> Hey everyone! This post is just to spark some new discussion on a guild
that took a bit of a downturn a while back in membership but has recently
recruited a few die-hard members. We wanna talk about reasonable
alterations, cosmetic or substantive, that would make the guild more fun and
more desirable :).
>
> I think those of us who are stayin' shifter love the theme of the guild.
It's fun and creative and flavorful. So, why aren't there more active
shifters? A month ago there were essentially none. There was a short
"bandwagon movement" where many people went shifter for twolf parties but
most of the active ones have gone back to an eq reinc that can also
solo/party exp. Now we have a handful of shifters with about 3 dlords that
are remotely active (and that term is used somewhat loosely). Finally, the
dlords that are active barely use the dlord form itself. So, the question
is again, why aren't there more shifters and dlords???
>
> Well, I would like to start out by simply stating the obvious. Shifters
have a set of penalties and benefits compared to other guilds. We pay a
penalty in that we are never wanted in normal eq and only wanted in exp
parties as a last resort (or if the leader is nice). If we want to use
dlord form we pay an additional price in gems, a difficult quest, and the
complete inability to party at all. We get the benefit of not needing to
buy/maintain equipment. We also are, supposedly, superior at soloing. If
we are in dragon form, we supposedly get an even larger bonus to our soloing
ability in exchange for gems and any partying ability at all. So, why
doesn't dlord get used?
>
> I'm very curious and interested to hear everyone's opinions on this topic!
I think you bring up some good points, Ogg. If I may toss in my two cents!
Yes, we have to do a quest. Personally, much like several other
folks who are/have been in SS, this often means having to re-reinc
because of screwing up an essential DL quest (like Eagle!) Zif
brought up a good point in that this is more or less a 'one time'
investment due to the fact that once you know the quest, it is
easier.
However, I don't want to understate the initial cost of having to
re-reinc. It costs a lot of gold/eq to sac, experience & even more
gold due to the tax.
That being said, we have yet even more costs associated with dragon
form. I'm guessing this is in place to off-set the cost savings of
not having to use/repair EQ. Even with this in mind it is not always
possible to find & save up gems to shift into your preferred dragon
form. Taking that a step further, Black Dragon is the only Dragon
form that has a quest associated with it and is in turn the
preferred form of shifters making it HARD to find Onyxes.
Folks like Chemosh take full advantage of this by offering 10 onyxes
on sales for 150k. Gatta love supply & demand. It also costs us
anywhere from 50-75k-ish in gold just to shift!
Even with these costs associated with shifting let me state that I
truly do enjoy the guild. But being able to carry almost identical
rates in Eagle form with familiars makes spending the time & money
to get Black Dragon form seem like its not quite worth it. Yes, we
can solo Bigger mobs, but not at a rate any greater than soloing
smaller mobs in a free form.
After all of this I was told (and please please do correct me if I'm
wrong) that Dragon form is going to take (or has already taken)
tunes to hits and/or exp rate. I don't want this guild to be over
tuned but with the comparison of Dragon form to something like Eagle
or Tiger form (with familiars, of course) I would really like to see
some small tweaks in the positive direction either for hits, lowered
spell costs, tweak in xp rate because we /have/ to solo, etc.
Please don't take this as a flame or a complaint. Again, I love the
guild and am happy that I was fortunate enough to be un-banned
several years ago after trying (and miserably failing forcing myself
to reinc due to a failed quest, then a forced reinc anyway) to share
quest info. I like this guild and would love to see something other
than a 2-3 week 'surge' in shifters.
Running in a big pack last week was the most fun I've had on this
game in years.
Hopefully some of these ideas help.
Q
-----------------
poster: Rancor
subject: >>Rejuvenating a Wonderfully Themed Guild
date: Mon Apr 28 22:14:44 2008
Dragon had the intent of being for small eq mobs so it is not
suprising eagle can solo well as that was eagles intent.
People choose black because of it's breath
Are you kidding me about gems? honestly? how about gem blaster,
how about I just saw 20 onyxes in the various shops that accept
gems. How about my eq repair. ohh never mind that you need 10 gems
for like 4 hour shift. I am pretty sure my eq set costs more to
repair for necro in 4 hours than it costs you to shift.
please stop picking things that are not really wrong with the guild.
Rather than say omg dragon does not solo like it should we pay to
much for it. solo as eagle get the gems check different shops. kill
1 gold area a shift to afford your 150k. It is really not that
hard.
-----------------
poster: Rancor
subject: >>>Rejuvenating a Wonderfully Themed Guild
date: Mon Apr 28 22:19:56 2008
56 1 enormous pure white onyx 367
59 1 enormous pure white onyx 315
463 3 pure white onyx 105
467 4 very large pure white onyx 274
470 3 enormous pure white onyx 367
535 3 large pure white onyx 228
545 4 large pure white onyx 195
551 3 very large pure white onyx 235
560 3 huge pure white onyx 321
FS 150k to the people who cant shop for themselves.
PS stop paying people 150k and you wont see them for stupid prices
This is from the 2 most common shops btw. I know you know where they are
-----------------
poster: Mugen
subject: >Rejuvenating a Wonderfully Themed Guild
date: Tue Apr 29 00:21:01 2008
On Mon Apr 28 08:17:16 2008 Ogg wrote post #1:
> Hey everyone! This post is just to spark some new discussion on a guild
that took a bit of a downturn a while back in membership but has recently
recruited a few die-hard members. We wanna talk about reasonable
alterations, cosmetic or substantive, that would make the guild more fun and
more desirable :).
>
> I think those of us who are stayin' shifter love the theme of the guild.
It's fun and creative and flavorful. So, why aren't there more active
shifters? A month ago there were essentially none. There was a short
"bandwagon movement" where many people went shifter for twolf parties but
most of the active ones have gone back to an eq reinc that can also
solo/party exp. Now we have a handful of shifters with about 3 dlords that
are remotely active (and that term is used somewhat loosely). Finally, the
dlords that are active barely use the dlord form itself. So, the question
is again, why aren't there more shifters and dlords???
>
> Well, I would like to start out by simply stating the obvious. Shifters
have a set of penalties and benefits compared to other guilds. We pay a
penalty in that we are never wanted in normal eq and only wanted in exp
parties as a last resort (or if the leader is nice). If we want to use
dlord form we pay an additional price in gems, a difficult quest, and the
complete inability to party at all. We get the benefit of not needing to
buy/maintain equipment. We also are, supposedly, superior at soloing. If
we are in dragon form, we supposedly get an even larger bonus to our soloing
ability in exchange for gems and any partying ability at all. So, why
doesn't dlord get used?
>
> I'm very curious and interested to hear everyone's opinions on this topic!
Moonkin
-----------------
poster: Axis
subject: >>Rejuvenating a Wonderfully Themed Guild
date: Tue Apr 29 06:37:41 2008
On Tue Apr 29 00:21:01 2008 Mugen wrote post #6:
> parties as a last resort (or if the leader is nice). If we want to use
> dlord form we pay an additional price in gems, a difficult quest, and the
> complete inability to party at all. We get the benefit of not needing to
> buy/maintain equipment. We also are, supposedly, superior at soloing. If
> we are in dragon form, we supposedly get an even larger bonus to our soloing
> ability in exchange for gems and any partying ability at all. So, why
> doesn't dlord get used?
> >
> > I'm very curious and interested to hear everyone's opinions on this topic!
> Moonkin
its my fault. ill reinc out of eq tank so everyone goes back
-----------------
poster: Bremen
subject: Shifter/Dragon forms
date: Tue Apr 29 10:32:02 2008
As a longtime shapeshifter, I have a lil experience in this..
Gold/gem costs.. Are NOT a issue with the guild.
However, the amount of hits/dmg is rather depressing when you
consider how it was/and how it is now.. real depressing
on the otherhand, we've had a massive flux of necro's tuning all the
area's to shit.. soo that definatly doesnt help..
All things considered, I still love the guild, dragons are just
awesome creatures.
PS rancor's a dumbass
Thanks
Thanks
Bremen
-----------------
poster: Quillz
subject: >>>>Rejuvenating a Wonderfully Themed Guild
date: Tue Apr 29 14:43:17 2008
On Mon Apr 28 22:19:56 2008 Rancor wrote post #5:
> 56 1 enormous pure white onyx 367
> 59 1 enormous pure white onyx 315
> 463 3 pure white onyx 105
> 467 4 very large pure white onyx 274
> 470 3 enormous pure white onyx 367
> 535 3 large pure white onyx 228
> 545 4 large pure white onyx 195
> 551 3 very large pure white onyx 235
> 560 3 huge pure white onyx 321
>
> FS 150k to the people who cant shop for themselves.
>
> PS stop paying people 150k and you wont see them for stupid prices
> This is from the 2 most common shops btw. I know you know where they are
Never once have I seen that many onxes for sale. The most I've
picked up at any one time has been six. Then again, several shifters
just reinc'd out of the guild as well.
-----------------
poster: Quillz
subject: >>>Rejuvenating a Wonderfully Themed Guild
date: Tue Apr 29 14:54:44 2008
On Mon Apr 28 22:14:44 2008 Rancor wrote post #4:
> Dragon had the intent of being for small eq mobs so it is not
> suprising eagle can solo well as that was eagles intent.
>
> People choose black because of it's breath
>
> Are you kidding me about gems? honestly? how about gem blaster,
> how about I just saw 20 onyxes in the various shops that accept
> gems. How about my eq repair. ohh never mind that you need 10 gems
> for like 4 hour shift. I am pretty sure my eq set costs more to
> repair for necro in 4 hours than it costs you to shift.
>
> please stop picking things that are not really wrong with the guild.
> Rather than say omg dragon does not solo like it should we pay to
> much for it. solo as eagle get the gems check different shops. kill
> 1 gold area a shift to afford your 150k. It is really not that
> hard.
>
>
And no, I honestly wansn't kidding you about gems. For several days
in a row I logged in at random, checked gem shops on multipe islands
and found absolutely nothing. Other than other SS's camped out in
the shop.
As I said, repeatedly, this isn't a complain or a flame which is how
you've taken it. I was throwing out ideas & suggestions based off of
experience and other shifters opinions. I didnt' say we paid too
much for it, I said we paid for it. It isn't near the rant you're
making it out to be.
I'm saying we hit weak. I'm saying we do NOT need a downtune to hits
and/or exp rate.
And I did solo as eagle to get gems/gold so I could save up to get
into dragon form. My point is there SHOULD be a difference between
eagle form and dragon form.
Otherwhise, other than soloing small eq mobs (which is a HUGE waste
of time as it takes forever, which is 'intent' of dragon form)
dragon form doesn't offer much above & beyond eagle form, which is
my basis for saying dragon form doesn't need a downtune to hits or
exp rate.
Is that clear enough?
-----------------
poster: Esoteric
subject: >>>>Rejuvenating a Wonderfully Themed Guild
date: Tue Apr 29 15:12:27 2008
On Tue Apr 29 14:54:44 2008 Quillz wrote post #10:
> and/or exp rate.
> And I did solo as eagle to get gems/gold so I could save up to get
> into dragon form. My point is there SHOULD be a difference between
> eagle form and dragon form.
> Otherwhise, other than soloing small eq mobs (which is a HUGE waste
> of time as it takes forever, which is 'intent' of dragon form)
> dragon form doesn't offer much above & beyond eagle form, which is
> my basis for saying dragon form doesn't need a downtune to hits or
> exp rate.
> Is that clear enough?
I see onyxes in gem shops/general shops regularly. Also, yes, a 4
hour shift should be 500k imo. Since a decent dragon can just sit in
giants and back that back in 45 mins anyway. Another reason there
aren't as many dragon lords is that some people do not want to risk
the quest, they could fail, fubaring the entire reinc. Like timber
or eagle, etc. Dlord is fine. I'd pay roughly 1.7m gold/week in eq
repairs, if i didnt have blacksmith. So yeah, 150k/shift isn't
anything. Fighting a dlord in an arena, me having top eq set, them
being inflated to breaths i got romped, so to say dlords dont hit as
much as they do, may be mis. I got 14x in a round. I don't even do
that! :/
-----------------
poster: Trigon
subject: >>>>>Rejuvenating a Wonderfully Themed Guild
date: Tue Apr 29 15:28:29 2008
-----------------
poster: Ogg
subject: >Shifter/Dragon forms
date: Wed Apr 30 04:56:09 2008
On Tue Apr 29 10:32:02 2008 Bremen wrote post #8 in guild.shapeshifter:
> As a longtime shapeshifter, I have a lil experience in this..
> Gold/gem costs.. Are NOT a issue with the guild.
> However, the amount of hits/dmg is rather depressing when you
> consider how it was/and how it is now.. real depressing
> on the otherhand, we've had a massive flux of necro's tuning all the
> area's to shit.. soo that definatly doesnt help..
> All things considered, I still love the guild, dragons are just
> awesome creatures.
> PS rancor's a dumbass
> Thanks
> Thanks
> Bremen
Keeping the discussion on track:
Bremen has it largely correct. Gold/gem costs are, at worst, comparable to eq maintenance costs. The current penalties in dlord form are pretty steep. This in addition to the influx of another solocentric guild with the killing capacity of a small party has made it difficult for dlords to really shine. I agree that I love the guild too and enjoy the independence and raw power of being a dragon. However, I will highlight what I think the current problem is and a fair/balanced way to fix it without overwhelming wizard-hours.
I think that quillz made a good point by comparing eagle to dragon. I have had similar experiences in soloing in both forms. Dragon is more powerful obviously, so it allows me to do bigger creatures. However it gets penalties (even on creatures my own "size" and larger). So, the net effect is very little, if any, benefit in my exping ability as dragon. The small amount of experience I've had eqing as dragon has been pretty dismal, but I only tried wraith champions (duoing with a lurker for interrupts/damage) so maybe I haven't tried hard enough. I can't imagine how a dlord could do enough damage to eq at anything but a snail's pace. Anyway, the bottom line is that there is a cost to obtaining dlord (above any nondragon form) in exp, gold, quest, and partying. Despite the cost there is little benefit to getting dlord form in the form of exprate and only a small benefit in the ability to obtain gold. Additionally, more difficult enemies are required in dragon form and soloing is generally more difficult as a result. I think this poor cost/benefit ratio is the reason there are almost no dragons soloing anymore. I believe the lack of utilization of the form is evidence that some kind of uptune is needed to keep it in balance with the rest of the game.
The solution I pose is good because it is one already used in the game to good effect. There are two other solo-oriented guilds that are, apart from unforseen interactions or minor tweaks, well balanced. Dragon lord is underpowered relative to them without question. One of the major things that keeps them "fair" is that you cannot power level in another guild up to ~1.5G and then reinc woodsman or necro and expect to pwn. Woodsman functions somewhat mediocre without a good bit of guild mastery, but rewards dedication to the guild by improving substantially with gmastery. I am not very familiar with necro but am fairly certain the necro guild requires dedication and time in the guild to become very good. You have to get enough grank or gmastery (I don't know which) to get lich/high lich. You have to level up your fams. You can't just reinc necro as a gigbie and suddenly go around chemoshing everything. However, dlord is not in this kind of balance. What we don't want is for everyone to reinc solo dlord so they can power level and power exp to their ideal eq reinc. What we do want is for those individuals with the patience, dedication, and love of the guild to be rewarded with a strong, powerful, and fun form. The loss of quests when you reinc is one mechanism for this, but it's not enough.
So, to concisely sum this up. Dlord form is underpowered relative to other solo guilds and relative to a lesser form. This is evidenced by the lack of dlords actually dedicated to playing and by quillz's and my experience. The reason it is underpowered is because tunes were necessary. Tunes were necessary because there is not currently a mechanism in place to reward dedicated shifters and deter "temporary dlords". Dedicated shifters deserve more for their effort in dlord form primarily because they are completely prohibited from partying and because they must complete risky and challenging quests that may somewhat ruin their reinc. A mechanism currently exists in woodsman that functions in this way and has been succesful in balancing the guild. Until such a mechanism is implemented the dlord guild will continue to be neglected.
-----------------
poster: Ogg
subject: >Shifter/Dragon forms
date: Wed Apr 30 05:22:35 2008
On Tue Apr 29 10:32:02 2008 Bremen wrote post #8 in guild.shapeshifter:
> As a longtime shapeshifter, I have a lil experience in this..
> Gold/gem costs.. Are NOT a issue with the guild.
> However, the amount of hits/dmg is rather depressing when you
> consider how it was/and how it is now.. real depressing
> on the otherhand, we've had a massive flux of necro's tuning all the
> area's to shit.. soo that definatly doesnt help..
> All things considered, I still love the guild, dragons are just
> awesome creatures.
> PS rancor's a dumbass
> Thanks
> Thanks
> Bremen
Sorry, when I said "raw power" in reference to dragon form, I don't mean I think the form is good enough as it is. I'm just referring to the fact that I can explore areas with possible aggros and not worry about being insta-deathed. Dragon has very good resistances and defensive specials and such. That kind of security is nice. The offense is seriously lacking atm, though, and things take forever to die.
-----------------
poster: Daneel
subject: >>Shifter/Dragon forms
date: Wed Apr 30 06:54:54 2008
On Wed Apr 30 04:56:09 2008 Ogg wrote post #13 in guild.shapeshifter:
> On Tue Apr 29 10:32:02 2008 Bremen wrote post #8 in guild.shapeshifter:
...
> I think that quillz made a good point by comparing eagle to dragon.
> I have had similar experiences in soloing in both forms. Dragon is
> more powerful obviously, so it allows me to do bigger creatures.
> However it gets penalties (even on creatures my own "size" and
> larger).
The penalties are continuous, so you should see something at your own
size, but relatively little. If you're seeing significant effects
combatting monsters your own size, that's a bug I'll have to look
into.
That being said, Quillz is correct that the intent of DLord is not
xping. It is not a surprise to me that Eagle is as good - it was, in
fact, by my testing, as good before the most recent changes to DLord
(which are now, what, 2 years ago?)
> Additionally, more difficult enemies are required in dragon form and
> soloing is generally more difficult as a result.
I don't think I agree with this statement; more difficult enemies are
required, but your defences are enough higher that it should be about
a wash.
> The solution I pose is good because it is one already used in the
> game to good effect. There are two other solo-oriented guilds that
> are, apart from unforseen interactions or minor tweaks, well
> balanced. Dragon lord is underpowered relative to them without
> question. One of the major things that keeps them "fair" is that
> you cannot power level in another guild up to ~1.5G and then reinc
> woodsman or necro and expect to pwn. Woodsman functions somewhat
> mediocre without a good bit of guild mastery, but rewards dedication
> to the guild by improving substantially with gmastery.
I would question that DLord is underpowered. Each of these guilds has
its strengths, each its weaknesses. Dragon lord may not be as good at
straight xps as these others, but it is far easier to play (once
you're past the entry cost), with far less prep time, and less danger.
Shifter does this through quests. The dynamic is different, but IMO
equivalent.
> The loss of quests when you reinc is one mechanism for this, but
> it's not enough.
Why not? Please explain.
> So, to concisely sum this up. Dlord form is underpowered relative
> to other solo guilds and relative to a lesser form. This is
> evidenced by the lack of dlords actually dedicated to playing and by
> quillz's and my experience.
I find it encouraging that the top shifters do not just sit around as
dragons all day, but in fact use multiple forms. Ideally, each form
would have its purpose, as much for dragon lords as for any other
shifter.
And I strongly dislike the mechanism of needing lots of time and
mastery to be good at this. We have plenty of that on the mud
already; I want this guild to be different in that regard. I prefer
mechanisms that reward thought and intelligence to mechanisms that
reward doggedness and rote repetition.
The most recent (now two-year-old) tune to shifter was as a result of
seeing dragon lord xp rates upwards of 200k/min sustainably. My
baseline standard is that a purely solo guild should never be able to
top half that (and that party guilds shouldn't be able to top 150k/min
in a good party (and I know there are problems with either
measurement; say averaged out over a four-hour period). Convince me
shifters can't reach that goal atm, and I will tune them up a bit.
Please don't allow this to quell the discussion though. I'm reading
all this and thinking about it.
-Daneel
p.s. I saw some rumors in this thread that there is a planned downtune
to shifters right now - this is not true.
-----------------
poster: Ogg
subject: >>>Shifter/Dragon forms
date: Wed Apr 30 07:40:45 2008
On Wed Apr 30 06:54:54 2008 Daneel wrote post #15 in guild.shapeshifter:
> On Wed Apr 30 04:56:09 2008 Ogg wrote post #13 in guild.shapeshifter:
> > On Tue Apr 29 10:32:02 2008 Bremen wrote post #8 in guild.shapeshifter:
> ...
> > I think that quillz made a good point by comparing eagle to dragon.
> > I have had similar experiences in soloing in both forms. Dragon is
> > more powerful obviously, so it allows me to do bigger creatures.
> > However it gets penalties (even on creatures my own "size" and
> > larger).
>
> The penalties are continuous, so you should see something at your own
> size, but relatively little. If you're seeing significant effects
> combatting monsters your own size, that's a bug I'll have to look
> into.
From my experience, it can take from 3 to 9 minutes to kill a monster in the appropriate range (anything bigger than about 150k seems to be "about right"). Gypsy guards on hyb can take 8 or 9 minutes or so while a red dragon may take about 5 minutes. Mature Cave wyverns can be done in as little as 3. From this experience I feel that I'm getting penalized a bit too much.
>
>
> That being said, Quillz is correct that the intent of DLord is not
> xping. It is not a surprise to me that Eagle is as good - it was, in
> fact, by my testing, as good before the most recent changes to DLord
> (which are now, what, 2 years ago?)
If this is how it was intended then I offer no further argument that dlord isn't "stronger enough" than eagle.
>
> > Additionally, more difficult enemies are required in dragon form and
> > soloing is generally more difficult as a result.
>
> I don't think I agree with this statement; more difficult enemies are
> required, but your defences are enough higher that it should be about
> a wash.
The problem is as I have stated. I am very satisfied with the defensive abilities of the form, but all the defense in the world is not going to make a 300k monster die. I am finding that it's not a wash. While dlord defenses are scaled up appropriately in going from eagle (100kish monsters) to dlord (300kish monsters), the offensive abilities are not scaled up appropriately.
>
> > The solution I pose is good because it is one already used in the
> > game to good effect. There are two other solo-oriented guilds that
> > are, apart from unforseen interactions or minor tweaks, well
> > balanced. Dragon lord is underpowered relative to them without
> > question. One of the major things that keeps them "fair" is that
> > you cannot power level in another guild up to ~1.5G and then reinc
> > woodsman or necro and expect to pwn. Woodsman functions somewhat
> > mediocre without a good bit of guild mastery, but rewards dedication
> > to the guild by improving substantially with gmastery.
>
> I would question that DLord is underpowered. Each of these guilds has
> its strengths, each its weaknesses. Dragon lord may not be as good at
> straight xps as these others, but it is far easier to play (once
> you're past the entry cost), with far less prep time, and less danger.
>
> Shifter does this through quests. The dynamic is different, but IMO
> equivalent.
Agreed that dlord is easier to play once you've done all the "startup" than, say, necro for sure. Woodsman also takes a bit of effort in keeping all the relevant prots and stuff up. Dlord does its "payment" through quests. However you're also precluded from partying completely in dlord form and that should not be overlooked. A high lvl necro can recruit some people to boost his rate by partying. The same goes for woodsman, who will often recruit an abj to duo with and get some extremely good rates. Dlords don't have this option at all, and I don't feel this drawback is reflected in some kind of improvement in the dlord form.
>
>
> > The loss of quests when you reinc is one mechanism for this, but
> > it's not enough.
> Why not? Please explain.
Well, I was thinking that dlord could be a guild with very great potential for dedicated individuals but with very little to offer a "reinc bunny". So dlord would get an uptune but only for players who deserve it (by doing whatever, gmastery, more quests, whatever). Players who don't would need suitable penalties and deterrents. I simply wanted to express that losing 2 forms would probably not be quite enough under such a system.
>
>
>
> > So, to concisely sum this up. Dlord form is underpowered relative
> > to other solo guilds and relative to a lesser form. This is
> > evidenced by the lack of dlords actually dedicated to playing and by
> > quillz's and my experience.
>
> I find it encouraging that the top shifters do not just sit around as
> dragons all day, but in fact use multiple forms. Ideally, each form
> would have its purpose, as much for dragon lords as for any other
> shifter.
>
> And I strongly dislike the mechanism of needing lots of time and
> mastery to be good at this. We have plenty of that on the mud
> already; I want this guild to be different in that regard. I prefer
> mechanisms that reward thought and intelligence to mechanisms that
> reward doggedness and rote repetition.
Understood. I appreciate how you want the guild to be different. I understand if you don't like the "system" I proposed. I also very much appreciate the encouragement of using different forms for different things. I loved Silverquick's idea of aquatic forms! But I know this is a huge undertaking and completely outside the scope of this discussion.
>
>
> The most recent (now two-year-old) tune to shifter was as a result of
> seeing dragon lord xp rates upwards of 200k/min sustainably. My
> baseline standard is that a purely solo guild should never be able to
> top half that (and that party guilds shouldn't be able to top 150k/min
> in a good party (and I know there are problems with either
> measurement; say averaged out over a four-hour period). Convince me
> shifters can't reach that goal atm, and I will tune them up a bit.
I thank you very much for all your attention and well-thought out responses, especially this one. I think we could arrange an experiment/test under controlled conditions we could all agree on. I would be very interested in that. I know I have never bested a 75 rate and that is not sustainable as I can only get it in RDC or in wyverns (before they got tuned, probably mostly by me).
In reference to your baselines. Is it okay to be able to do better than that over a short period as long as it eventually averages out to that? Also, I could see a kobold tank getting better than 150 sustained in a good party. Are your baselines assuming a 100% xprate? In that case, is it ok for a dlord with greater exp rate wish to solo 109?
I think I'd be a good candidate to test on because I have all the relevant skills at 100. So I shouldn't be "too powerful" or "too weak". Let me know.
>
> Please don't allow this to quell the discussion though. I'm reading
> all this and thinking about it.
>
> -Daneel
>
>
> p.s. I saw some rumors in this thread that there is a planned downtune
> to shifters right now - this is not true.
>
-----------------
poster: Ogg
subject: >>>Shifter/Dragon forms
date: Wed Apr 30 08:11:45 2008
Sorry I keep double posting :/.
I wanted to mention for the benefit of the other shifters reading the board that the idea was proposed and well-received to trade out the hit penalty for an exp penalty. This seems to make more sense from both a RP perspective and game mechanics perspective.
The reason it seems better is that dragons have no difficult killing things regardless of their size. They are big, strong, fearsome beings to behold. Other powerful creatures respect them and smaller creatures quiver before them. But yet, dragons don't really go around finding smaller things to challenge, why not? The reason is that dragons are also arrogant and lofty, they would never waste time challenging something "beneath" them. For a creature not to be worth your time in the game, it should offer a smaller reward than you'd normally expect, and that's normally in the form of exp. This is where the fantasy and roleplaying of dragon translates into a gameplay mechanic. It also makes a lot more sense in gameplay because players don't expect to hit less/worse against weaker things, but actually more :).
This is more of a tweak than a tune, and it seems relatively minor (from someone with only limited mudcoding experience). So, I hope it will get put in to the benefit and enjoyment of all :). Thanks in advance!
-----------------
poster: Daneel
subject: >>>>Shifter/Dragon forms
date: Wed Apr 30 08:34:53 2008
On Wed Apr 30 07:40:45 2008 Ogg wrote post #16 in guild.shapeshifter:>
> From my experience, it can take from 3 to 9 minutes to kill a
> monster in the appropriate range (anything bigger than about 150k
> seems to be "about right"). Gypsy guards on hyb can take 8 or 9
> minutes or so while a red dragon may take about 5 minutes. Mature
> Cave wyverns can be done in as little as 3. From this experience I
> feel that I'm getting penalized a
> bit too much.
> ...
> The problem is as I have stated. I am very satisfied with the
> defensive abilities of the form, but all the defense in the world is
> not going to make a 300k monster die. I am finding that it's not a
> wash. While dlord defenses are scaled up appropriately in going from
> eagle (100kish monsters) to dlord (300kish monsters), the offensive
> abilities are not scaled up appropriately.
300k is a bit low for a dragon. I know this belies by previous
statement, but at some level, you shouldn't stop seeing penalties
until the monster is actually at least somewhat of a challenge.
> ... Dlords don't have [the partying] option at all, and I don't feel
> this drawback is reflected in some kind of improvement in the dlord
> form.
Point taken, I'll think about this some.
This may be a case of compensating for a given benefit multiple
times, independently. It wouldn't be the first time that has
happened. I'm not sure.
> Understood. I appreciate how you want the guild to be different. I
> understand if you don't like the "system" I proposed. I also very
> much appreciate the encouragement of using different forms for
> different things. I loved Silverquick's idea of aquatic forms! But I
> know this is a huge undertaking and completely outside the scope of
> this discussion.
It's not all that hard to introduce a new form. The hard part are the
quests. And the fact that I've told myself no new forms until all
current forms have quests. I've already a couple new form lines I'd
like to write when that is done (mounts being the first).
That being said, red dragon and vulture are currently spoken for, but
if any builders are interested in taking on leopard, tiger, polar
bear, or blue or white dragon, please do let me know. I'd be happy to
discuss the restrictions and requirements for each of these. Plus, if
you write it, presumably you know how to do it! :-)
> I thank you very much for all your attention and well-thought out
> responses, especially this one. I think we could arrange an
> experiment/test under controlled conditions we could all agree on. I
> would be very interested in that. I know I have never bested a 75
> rate and that is not sustainable as I can only get it in RDC or in
> wyverns (before they got tuned, probably mostly by me).
>
> In reference to your baselines. Is it okay to be able to do better
> than that over a short period as long as it eventually averages out to
> that? Also, I could see a kobold tank getting better than 150
> sustained in a good party. Are your baselines assuming a 100% xprate?
> In that case, is it ok for a dlord with greater exp rate wish to solo
> 109?
My baselines assume an ideal player, with ideal wishes, fully trained,
and playing very intelligently. I expect 2/3 or so of this for more
typical players. I realize by this measure there are lots of
out-of-tune guilds, though.
-Daneel
p.s., thanks for posting about the xp vs hits thing, I'd forgotten
about it, and it is a good idea :-)
-----------------
poster: Open
subject: current threads
date: Wed Apr 30 08:41:54 2008
i would like to further point out that shifters got tuned vs smaller
mobs BEFORE the global tune of players vs smaller mobs. in effect,
shifter got a double-whammy there.
-----------------
poster: Ogg
subject: >current threads
date: Wed Apr 30 08:45:38 2008
On Wed Apr 30 08:41:54 2008 Open wrote post #19 in guild.shapeshifter:
> i would like to further point out that shifters got tuned vs smaller
> mobs BEFORE the global tune of players vs smaller mobs. in effect,
> shifter got a double-whammy there.
Really good point. I have been on/off the mud for years at a time and wasn't aware that it happened in that order. It seems likely that dlord got downtuned FROM being balanced while the mud was trying to downtune TO being balanced. Thanks.
-----------------
poster: Ogg
subject: Tweak/Tune ideas for dragon lord
date: Thu May 1 12:27:44 2008
I'm really happy with the progress made on the board already. I think we've managed to filter out many things that players thought were problems but were not. The main problem with dragon lord right now is this: It is the ultimate form of the shifter guild, but it doesn't really have a dedicated "purpose" for which it is actually used. It is not intended to be the primary form for soloing experience. It is not intended to be a party form such as polar bear. Etc. It serves some niche uses such as clearing blockers or killing large mobs in a quest. It can gold reasonably, though eagle is arguably comparable because of the convenience of dsell even if it does not go quite as fast. What is dlord for?
By all accounts dlord was/is intended as the eq form. This makes sense. Dragons are among the fiercest creatures in all the land. It's the omicron form, the crowning achievement of a shifter, so haughty and confident of its own abilities it will not even deign to party with mere humanoids. It doesn't fit the theme very well to use such a powerful form just to chain relatively weak experience monsters quickly. It makes sense to use such power against other things with great power. However, to my knowledge the realization of this original intention hasn't been succesful. Why hasn't it?
The difficult has been that, to be able to do eq reasonably you need to output tons of damage. If most of your damage is physical, even moreso. If you can output this kind of damage then experience creatures are ludicrously easy. On the other hand if you lower your phys damage to make experience creatures balanced, you make eq impossible and the form loses most of its purpose and its RP appeal. I'd like to propose a mechanic to deal with this problem and make dlord the eq form it was intended to be without unbalancing it relative to experience creatures.
I'd like to see dlord get a new offensive special "penetrate defenses". The special has a chance of going off with each melee attack and/or skill attack. It essentially gives the dlord a hit as if the opponent had substantially lower resistance. The amount it lowers the opponent's res by would be a fraction, so for experience creatures the special would be relatively small while against eq creatures with insanely high phys res it would be large i.e.:
experience creature with 10% phys_res gets hit as if it had 8%
Small eq creature with 50% phys_res gets hit as if it had 40%
Medium eq creature with 80% phys_res gets hit as if it had 64%
Those numbers are, of course, complete guesses by me.
Comments?
-----------------
poster: Pyromaniac
subject: dl
date: Thu May 1 15:14:58 2008
i like what ogg posted concerning dmg in dl form. its pretty low
and i have also heard daneel lean towards the "dl was a eq type
form" position. my comments would be for it to be more transparent
than what ogg suggests. other than that i dont have anything well
thought out to point out. .....
oh, maybe since we are on the "dl for eq" track, instead of not
being able to party at all, maybe a small window for some amount of
time(15mins??) and with limited party size (2-3max). that also
might make it viable.
pyro
-----------------
poster: Marelion
subject: Ogg's ideas
date: Thu May 1 15:24:34 2008
I like ogg's idea. About being able to party in dragon form, might
be interesting for a dragon to get a skill or spell allowing for a
limited number of people to mount him (2-3, dependant of guild
mastery) so dragon could use migrate with those people on his back
and eq with them.
-----------------
poster: Axis
subject: >Ogg's ideas
date: Thu May 1 15:29:14 2008
On Thu May 1 15:24:34 2008 Marelion wrote post #23:
> I like ogg's idea. About being able to party in dragon form, might
> be interesting for a dragon to get a skill or spell allowing for a
> limited number of people to mount him (2-3, dependant of guild
> mastery) so dragon could use migrate with those people on his back
> and eq with them.
I got dibs on mounting Smee, Piero, and Dfart.
-----------------
poster: Pyromaniac
subject: >>Ogg's ideas
date: Thu May 1 15:36:11 2008
On Thu May 1 15:29:14 2008 Axis wrote post #24:
> On Thu May 1 15:24:34 2008 Marelion wrote post #23:
> > I like ogg's idea. About being able to party in dragon form, might
> > be interesting for a dragon to get a skill or spell allowing for a
> > limited number of people to mount him (2-3, dependant of guild
> > mastery) so dragon could use migrate with those people on his back
> > and eq with them.
> I got dibs on mounting Smee, Piero, and Dfart.
i take mastercard, visa, and diners club. .25 every 1/8th mile
3.45 for each trip from the airport.
-----------------
poster: Axis
subject: >>>Ogg's ideas
date: Thu May 1 15:36:58 2008
On Thu May 1 15:36:11 2008 Pyromaniac wrote post #25:
> On Thu May 1 15:29:14 2008 Axis wrote post #24:
> > On Thu May 1 15:24:34 2008 Marelion wrote post #23:
> > > I like ogg's idea. About being able to party in dragon form, might
> > > be interesting for a dragon to get a skill or spell allowing for a
> > > limited number of people to mount him (2-3, dependant of guild
> > > mastery) so dragon could use migrate with those people on his back
> > > and eq with them.
> > I got dibs on mounting Smee, Piero, and Dfart.
> i take mastercard, visa, and diners club. .25 every 1/8th mile
> 3.45 for each trip from the airport.
And $9.95 for the magnums?
-----------------
poster: Pyromaniac
subject: >>>>Ogg's ideas
date: Thu May 1 15:41:37 2008
On Thu May 1 15:36:58 2008 Axis wrote post #26:
> On Thu May 1 15:36:11 2008 Pyromaniac wrote post #25:
> > On Thu May 1 15:29:14 2008 Axis wrote post #24:
> > > On Thu May 1 15:24:34 2008 Marelion wrote post #23:
> > > > I like ogg's idea. About being able to party in dragon form, might
> > > > be interesting for a dragon to get a skill or spell allowing for a
> > > > limited number of people to mount him (2-3, dependant of guild
> > > > mastery) so dragon could use migrate with those people on his back
> > > > and eq with them.
> > > I got dibs on mounting Smee, Piero, and Dfart.
> > i take mastercard, visa, and diners club. .25 every 1/8th mile
> > 3.45 for each trip from the airport.
> And $9.95 for the magnums?
thats between you and dfalt.
-----------------
poster: Axis
subject: >>>>>Ogg's ideas
date: Thu May 1 15:41:59 2008
On Thu May 1 15:41:37 2008 Pyromaniac wrote post #27:
> > > > > I like ogg's idea. About being able to party in dragon form, might
> > > > > be interesting for a dragon to get a skill or spell allowing for a
> > > > > limited number of people to mount him (2-3, dependant of guild
> > > > > mastery) so dragon could use migrate with those people on his back
> > > > > and eq with them.
> > > > I got dibs on mounting Smee, Piero, and Dfart.
> > > i take mastercard, visa, and diners club. .25 every 1/8th mile
> > > 3.45 for each trip from the airport.
> > And $9.95 for the magnums?
> thats between you and dfalt.
i have enough for u all ;)
-----------------
poster: Highpriest
subject: >Tweak/Tune ideas for dragon lord
date: Thu May 1 17:09:51 2008
hi
First, DL's melee damage is NOT really phys, I'd even guess it's <
50% phys and the rest dtype of the dragon's type. Moreover, the
breaths are there to inflict more non-phys damage. This is however,
my guess after doing all sorts of funny with my friend a year or two
back then while I was abjurer.
Second, there is no reason to assume that EQ mobs are always more
resistant to phys damage. In EQ mobs, the resistances are totally
randomly added with insane numbers, and phys has every possibility
to be one without being added to insanity.
Third, I've seen people EQ with the dragon tanking, while "external"
party members do things in the room. Though the efficiency is not as
good as an usual eq party, it does work out fine. If you're totally
thinking of soloing bigger eq mobs, that would be a different story
and requires Daneel to tune it carefully.
Last point, the vulnerable thing exists, this is why black dragons
are being favored. If you want this advantage, use black dragon to
EQ, and give up on advantages like stun or forget and such. However,
to make it well suited for EQing, maybe the DL breaths can be
changed to work in a way that it works better on EQ mobs, pretty
much like mind vortex from witch guildtree.
-----------------
poster: Axis
subject: >>Tweak/Tune ideas for dragon lord
date: Thu May 1 17:12:07 2008
On Thu May 1 17:09:51 2008 Highpriest wrote post #29:
> good as an usual eq party, it does work out fine. If you're totally
> thinking of soloing bigger eq mobs, that would be a different story
> and requires Daneel to tune it carefully.
>
> Last point, the vulnerable thing exists, this is why black dragons
> are being favored. If you want this advantage, use black dragon to
> EQ, and give up on advantages like stun or forget and such. However,
> to make it well suited for EQing, maybe the DL breaths can be
> changed to work in a way that it works better on EQ mobs, pretty
> much like mind vortex from witch guildtree.
can i still mount smee piero and dfart?
-----------------
poster: Feyd
subject: dl
date: Thu May 1 19:56:31 2008
d
iirc getting a bunch of different dragons together, red trying to
tank,blue forgetting,black vulning,green dmging worked fairly well
at dropping eq mobs, dunno how big it worked though
-----------------
poster: Silverquick
subject: One little idea
date: Sat May 3 11:17:03 2008
Here is one little thing that would be really helpful to eager
lowbies like me: When Morpheus says there's no form he can teach us
at the moment, it would be really handy to get some kind of hint as
to whether the reason is our level or a particular skill not being
high enough. I found out in passing during someone else's conversation
on the guild channel that call of nature was needed to get
quests for some of the more advanced forms, and I'd had no idea.
-----------------
poster: Daneel
subject: Dragon tune
date: Sun May 4 11:07:55 2008
I have implemented Ogg's idea of having dragons get less exps
instead of fewer hits when killing smaller monsters. At least
I think I have. Let me know if there are any problems.
I also halved the penalty, in light of Open's comments about all
large players getting tuned.
-Daneel
-----------------
poster: Ogg
subject: >Tweak/Tune ideas for dragon lord
date: Wed May 7 08:32:40 2008
Thanks for the info guys, I didn't realize dlord did so much nonphys melee damage.
Whatever the dtype, if dragon is to be an eq form we'll have to either use multiple dragons and coordinate things *very* carefully, or implement some kind of damage bonus against high res opponents.
Is it intended for dragons to eq together rather than alone? It certainly seems intended that way with the different colors having different dtypes and abilities. In that case, would it make sense to let dragons party only with other dragons? I know this is a significant overhaul and would probably require all kinds of careful coding to make sure dragon parties didn't become overpowered, but I think it fits the best and would be tons of fun.
-----------------
poster: Quillz
subject: Questions
date: Fri Jun 20 09:13:55 2008
From what I understand, an exp penatly has been implement instead of
a hit penalty for Dragon forms in shapeshifter. My questions is how
big/small is the penalty for what sized mobs?
I frequently see things like, "Deciding gambler is not worth your
time, you yawn and turn over." when the mobs are 500k+ (this one in
particular was 587899.)
I know that through this penalty we're encouraged to go after larger
mobs in general, but how big is the penalty even on a 500k+ mob? Is
that what was intended, to penalize shifters that kill mobs below a
certain size?
Is the penalty still in place for now 100-500k 'eq' mobs that used
to be 500k-1.5m?
Just curious how this all plays out.
Q
-----------------
poster: Daneel
subject: >Questions
date: Fri Jun 20 09:22:12 2008
On Fri Jun 20 09:13:55 2008 Quillz wrote post #35 in guild.shapeshifter:
> From what I understand, an exp penatly has been implement instead of
> a hit penalty for Dragon forms in shapeshifter. My questions is how
> big/small is the penalty for what sized mobs?
> I frequently see things like, "Deciding gambler is not worth your
> time, you yawn and turn over." when the mobs are 500k+ (this one in
> particular was 587899.)
For XP mobs, very roughly, it should be:
base worth xp penalty
1M 0%
500k 15%
250k 25%
100k 30%
100 80%
Yes, the penalty is there for eq. mobs too; judge them by combat strength.
You will see the same message(s) if there is any penalty at all, be it 0.1% or 80%.
-----------------
poster: Daneel
subject: New skill for dragon lords
date: Sun Nov 2 12:46:07 2008
Dragon lords have a new skill (mastery).
It shouldn't have a huge effect on normal xps, but will hopefully
make dragonlords a little more capable of equipment, as they
were originally intended to do.
-----------------
poster: Lucifer
subject: >New skill for dragon lords
date: Sun Nov 16 23:58:12 2008
Sounds excellent, now I have to max it and check it out :)
Good work! :) (I hope hihi)
Luc