-----------------

poster: Raivenloth
subject: Knowledge of Pressure Points
date: Sun Apr 22 15:20:37 2001

pt  Tick
I always thought that it would be nice to have a message for when
this skill was successful, maybe just for the player to keep
everyone from have to see it, but would be nice to see when our
masteries go off.
-R

-----------------

poster: Sleet
subject: target preference
date: Sat May 19 06:51:23 2001

i was just wondering why con was the effecting stat for this skill,
it doesnt make any sense to me why it does.
sltt

-----------------

poster: Sigwald
subject: >target preference
date: Wed Jun  6 11:34:02 2001

On Sat May 19 06:51:23 2001 Sleet wrote post #2:
> i was just wondering why con was the effecting stat for this skill,
> it doesnt make any sense to me why it does.
> sltt
That's an awfully good question.

-----------------

poster: Patato
subject: Thieves Portal
date: Sun Nov 25 21:06:25 2001

I seriously think that the thieves portal should be less
complicated, all that number crap confuses me.
q

-----------------

poster: Zifnab
subject: >Thieves Portal
date: Sun Nov 25 22:43:45 2001

On Sun Nov 25 21:06:25 2001 Patato wrote post #4:
> I seriously think that the thieves portal should be less
> complicated, all that number crap confuses me.
> q
then dont use it.

-----------------

poster: Wildchild
subject: >Thieves Portal
date: Sun Nov 25 23:46:03 2001

On Sun Nov 25 21:06:25 2001 Patato wrote post #4:
> I seriously think that the thieves portal should be less
> complicated, all that number crap confuses me.
> q

Maybe then we should set the rogue tunnels at a higher level than 1
level of rogue, since it's obviously far too complex for you
newbies/lowbies to attempt to figure out.

-WC

-----------------

poster: Baer
subject: >>Thieves Portal
date: Mon Nov 26 00:22:08 2001

On Sun Nov 25 23:46:03 2001 Wildchild wrote post #6:
> On Sun Nov 25 21:06:25 2001 Patato wrote post #4:
> > I seriously think that the thieves portal should be less
> > complicated, all that number crap confuses me.
> > q
> 
> Maybe then we should set the rogue tunnels at a higher level than 1
> level of rogue, since it's obviously far too complex for you
> newbies/lowbies to attempt to figure out.
> 
> -WC
Level and intelligence are in no way related. Look at me, I'm a high level.

-----------------

poster: Kaos
subject: >>>Thieves Portal
date: Mon Nov 26 02:47:55 2001

On Mon Nov 26 00:22:08 2001 Baer wrote post #7:
> On Sun Nov 25 23:46:03 2001 Wildchild wrote post #6:
> > On Sun Nov 25 21:06:25 2001 Patato wrote post #4:
> > > I seriously think that the thieves portal should be less
> > > complicated, all that number crap confuses me.
> > > q
> > 
> > Maybe then we should set the rogue tunnels at a higher level than 1
> > level of rogue, since it's obviously far too complex for you
> > newbies/lowbies to attempt to figure out.
> > 
> > -WC
> Level and intelligence are in no way related. Look at me, I'm a high level.
No you're not.

-----------------

poster: Uno
subject: >>>>Thieves Portal
date: Mon Nov 26 06:29:43 2001

On Mon Nov 26 02:47:55 2001 Kaos wrote post #8:
> On Mon Nov 26 00:22:08 2001 Baer wrote post #7:
> > On Sun Nov 25 23:46:03 2001 Wildchild wrote post #6:
> > > On Sun Nov 25 21:06:25 2001 Patato wrote post #4:
> > > > I seriously think that the thieves portal should be less
> > > > complicated, all that number crap confuses me.
> > > > q
> > > 
> > > Maybe then we should set the rogue tunnels at a higher level than 1
> > > level of rogue, since it's obviously far too complex for you
> > > newbies/lowbies to attempt to figure out.
> > > 
> > > -WC
> > Level and intelligence are in no way related. Look at me, I'm a high
level.
> No you're not.
i'd like to buy a vowel

-----------------

poster: Balinor
subject: backstab
date: Fri Mar 15 09:37:30 2002

I was looking this skill in exp grouping and it's really sad to have
to wait for 4 rounds before starting fight.
Normally exp is non stop, so this puts assasin in a bad light abit.
Having to wait before rogue can attack target is just more delay.
So i'm suggesting of a change for the skill use time from 4 to 3.
It wouldn't make rogues any more powerful, but would help us not to
wait so long when starting a fight.
Sorry about typos etc, telnet here ;)
q

-----------------

poster: Balinor
subject: guild item
date: Fri Mar 15 11:17:50 2002

Just a suggestion, if there should be a plan to make rogue guild item.
How bout a Dark Mask of the thieves, or something. similar minor
stat additions as they go up like other guilds(ma) ?
yours truly, Balinor the trigger happy rogue

-----------------

poster: Sleet
subject: >backstab
date: Mon Mar 18 00:47:20 2002

On Fri Mar 15 09:37:30 2002 Balinor wrote post #10:
> I was looking this skill in exp grouping and it's really sad to have
> to wait for 4 rounds before starting fight.
> Normally exp is non stop, so this puts assasin in a bad light abit.
> Having to wait before rogue can attack target is just more delay.
> So i'm suggesting of a change for the skill use time from 4 to 3.
> It wouldn't make rogues any more powerful, but would help us not to
> wait so long when starting a fight.
> Sorry about typos etc, telnet here ;)
> q
in juggler guild theres a skill that does that
think its called motion control, another thing that may help is to
not make thief tank.. dont have to wait for stab then

-----------------

poster: Balinor
subject: poisons
date: Thu Mar 21 11:00:04 2002

Ok,now rogues aren't any use for eq parties,but why don't make them to be use?
Just make them have a poison skill that let's them to make a poison
of their choise in dmg type, and have it a certain time before it
evaporates from weapon.
This way they could have different damages on stabs and hits.

-----------------

poster: Litho
subject: >poisons
date: Fri Mar 22 02:24:58 2002

poisons suck, period, maxxed lethal poison/apply/mastery was +1
dmg..imho all poisons should be upped..it could possibly fix the
whole guild.

-----------------

poster: Zifnab
subject: >>poisons
date: Fri Mar 22 04:52:07 2002

On Fri Mar 22 02:24:58 2002 Litho wrote post #14:
> poisons suck, period, maxxed lethal poison/apply/mastery was +1
> dmg..imho all poisons should be upped..it could possibly fix the
> whole guild.
nice constructive post, makes me want to jump right on this.

-----------------

poster: Bigglesworth
subject: poisons, etc..
date: Sun Mar 24 04:06:42 2002

the uppings of poison fixing the guild...ha ha ha..you jest Litho. =)
I would seriously doubt that..

-----------------

poster: Sleet
subject: >>>poisons
date: Fri Mar 29 03:59:31 2002

lol

-----------------

poster: Balinor
subject: 2 things
date: Thu Apr 18 10:58:33 2002

ok, 1st thing: Guild item, other guilds has it,make this one too!! now
2nd thing: Backstab is useless in parties because of forcing
everyone in room to combat ie. can't backstab!!
do something damnit :)
-Bal

-----------------

poster: Korthrun
subject: >2 things
date: Thu Apr 18 11:25:37 2002

tell your party to let you attack first

-----------------

poster: Balinor
subject: >>2 things
date: Thu Apr 18 11:26:28 2002

And have a fast moving exp party wait for 4 rounds before each kill?
i don't think they wait... ask anyone

-----------------

poster: Rancor
subject: Whining
date: Thu Apr 18 11:37:31 2002

Ok how about ya just stop whining about backstab.  I don't see many
rouges besides you complaining about backstab.  If you want to use
it there is a thing called solo.  Otherwise deal with stab.
Ranc

-----------------

poster: Litho
subject: >Whining
date: Thu Apr 18 11:38:37 2002

i dont see many rogues in general, because they suck, rancor, i am
with Balinor.

-----------------

poster: Ixtlilton
subject: >Whining
date: Thu Apr 18 11:39:31 2002

On Thu Apr 18 11:37:31 2002 Rancor wrote post #21:
> Ok how about ya just stop whining about backstab.  I don't see many
> rouges besides you complaining about backstab.  If you want to use
> it there is a thing called solo.  Otherwise deal with stab.
> Ranc
Ok, i think reason for not seeing anyone else complaining about
backstab is because there aren't any other active thieves.

-----------------

poster: Balinor
subject: >>Whining
date: Thu Apr 18 11:39:37 2002

Exactly, no one wants to play rogues coz they suck.
And this game favors partying thus, should make easier to rogues party too.

-----------------

poster: Rancor
subject: rouges
date: Thu Apr 18 11:58:01 2002

Why don't we just make it so all the gulds solo and party for the
same rate and everything will be happy go lucky then.  There are
advantages and dis advantages to all the guilds.  I agree that
rouges need a tune but not in a party sense.  They need a guild
item, and a tune for solo.  Backstab is a solo skill not a party
one.  
Ranc

-----------------

poster: Durin
subject: >>Whining
date: Thu Apr 18 12:27:34 2002

On Thu Apr 18 11:38:37 2002 Litho wrote post #22:
> i dont see many rogues in general, because they suck, rancor, i am
> with Balinor.
Yes i think Balinor has a valid point there, backstab is anyway the
most valuable and featured skill of that (sorry to say this, but sad
tree) tree line. On the other hand maybe it was good really to
freeze rogue guild for a while and take them out of the game until
they are fixed. Would lessen the dissing of that guild.

-Durin

-----------------

poster: Bigglesworth
subject: rogues
date: Thu Apr 18 12:45:09 2002

I don't know about you guys, but I plan on being rogue for a long
while, almost done with school for the semester and put the last of
my gold in this reinc. 
Sure I wouldn't mind seeing a revamp of the guild or guild eq..
Yeah, there's a problem with backstabbing in combat, but really, I
realized that when I backstabbed in parties it was much more useful
for me to just stab repeatedly and get refreshed rather than to wait
the rounds it takes while others are casting spells for backtab to
go off.
If it would be an issue of taking the guild out, possibly some
conversation with the peeps that are thieves to get opinions and
what not, and not everyone else who haven't played thief for more
than two days and who think it sucks..that would be just lame..
anyways, cya on the flip side.
-Biggs

-----------------

poster: Sigwald
subject: Rogues
date: Thu Apr 18 12:50:21 2002

I'm probably not going to close it, but then again I'm not going
to work on it for quite some time if ever. So basically the status
is quite clear, bards are complete and running, thieves are not
and probably won't be for quite some time. So quit whining about
thief changes, if you don't like them, don't play them.
As Bigg stated, some people wanna be thieves whatever so I don't really
see a point in closing it at the moment. 

-----------------

poster: Balinor
subject: >Rogues
date: Thu Apr 18 13:44:24 2002

"If you don't like them, don't play them" Uhh, is this what the mud
is about now?
Wizzies don't want to balance guilds so you just say play something else?
I liked rogue alot and played it for some time, but you can see a
pattern here...
People play woodsman because it's a guild alot more powerful than ma
or rogue or knight etc.
I think many would play rogue if it was made equal in power.

-----------------

poster: Ixtlilton
subject: >>Rogues
date: Thu Apr 18 13:56:33 2002

On Thu Apr 18 13:44:24 2002 Balinor wrote post #29:
> "If you don't like them, don't play them" Uhh, is this what the mud
> is about now?
> Wizzies don't want to balance guilds so you just say play something else?
> I liked rogue alot and played it for some time, but you can see a
> pattern here...
> People play woodsman because it's a guild alot more powerful than ma
> or rogue or knight etc.
> I think many would play rogue if it was made equal in power.
it's also about time and what the wizards feel like
remember none of the wizards get any from coding here, they/we do it
cause somehow we enjoy it =) for different reasons
and since no one is likely to work on thieves at the moment you'll
have to live with it as  it is
it's not as easy to just 'fix' a guild so it will be in tune with
other guilds as it may seem
for thieves to work good like a guild pretty much work needs to be
done with it
so until someone feels like it you'll just have to play it as it is
or not at all
*/Ixtlilton

-----------------

poster: Balinor
subject: >>>Rogues
date: Thu Apr 18 13:58:09 2002

yep,that's true,but saying it like that "sounds pretty harsh.

-----------------

poster: Zifnab
subject: >>Rogues
date: Thu Apr 18 14:23:11 2002

On Thu Apr 18 13:44:24 2002 Balinor wrote post #29:
> "If you don't like them, don't play them" Uhh, is this what the mud
> is about now?
> Wizzies don't want to balance guilds so you just say play something else?
Yes that is what the mud is about.  If you do not like the
guild do not play it, really easy.

And yes it woudl be wonderful to have everything balanced just perfectly
so far we are going on 7 years and that hasnt happend yet, 
do you know something I don't?

The current implementation of thieves does not fit in with the
path this mud has taken. And I think that is for the better
It takes some time to write a tree from the ground up, and
and longer to get valid/good ideas. 

So in the light that it takes time to get ideas and to write
the guild/spells/skills you will understand that we are only
human and do have lives outside of the mud.

Not to mention that there are a couple of new guilds being worked on
and seeing that the current implementation of thieves really
no longer works in this mud changes may be made (but that may be
removing them totally)

It takes time to do all this.

-----------------

poster: Quillz
subject: >>>Whining
date: Thu Apr 18 15:38:37 2002

On Thu Apr 18 11:39:37 2002 Balinor wrote post #24:
> Exactly, no one wants to play rogues coz they suck.
> And this game favors partying thus, should make easier to rogues party too.
Bal, I love you man. 
But "they suck" type statements arent going to get things done ;-)
Nor is "do somethign damnit!!"
Suggestions? 
I know you got me, lets hear em. 


-----------------

poster: Uno
subject: >>Rogues
date: Thu Apr 18 15:41:31 2002

i am ma and i cuold kikc yuor aSS

-----------------

poster: Asharak
subject: The Roguefight
date: Thu Apr 18 16:06:01 2002

xcatly mean this kind of guild like woodsman are. They are too powered..
And rogues are not excatly that..And Balinor wanted to make a
suggest for making them a bit better..
And you all start talking about whining etc.

And in the meantime...rogues get tuned all the time. There SHOULD be some
balance between the guilds. I DON*T mean that kind of balance here
what "the youngsters"
said before...about the perfect balance.

I have been thinking of ideas for a new rogue guild...and the result could
be better. It is anyway damn hard to create anything new for the
guild, without
changing it to something else that it's atm.

Modifying the thief guildtree will not be fast/easy job...so atm we
can't do anything to help
rogues...but it's not good if you keep tuning them.
nd the idea of not-to-use-backstabs is stupid. And good exp parties
have no time to
wait 4 rounds before each kill...just like Balinor said. And IT IS
NOT whining, when
you make a suggest.
If you can't use backstab...you loose several other nice skills with
it too. There are not
many skills left to use after that.. :P
And all those "if you don't like, don't play it" -things are pretty
stupid. As well we could tune
everything and make all of us reinc to woodsman.

-----------------

poster: Tektor
subject: >>Rogues
date: Thu Apr 18 22:05:57 2002

I think alot of people don't realize how much work it takes to bring
Thief back into tune. Wiz's don't get paid for this, in fact you
could say they almost lose money by being on and using electricity,
phone lines ect. (While its not alot of money it's still money going
somewhere thats not in your pocket). Lots of times people just give
negative feedback instead of anything that would help. People saying
"Don't like it, Don't play it" have a quite valid point, no one is
forcing you to play the guild. If you want Thief guild to be back in
tune the best thing to do is to either play it as it is or to
experiment with other guilds and be patient to the wiz's who are
usualy busy working on new things for us.

-----------------

poster: Tektor
subject: >>>Rogues
date: Thu Apr 18 22:11:54 2002

On Thu Apr 18 22:05:57 2002 Tektor wrote post #36:
> I think alot of people don't realize how much work it takes to bring
> Thief back into tune. Wiz's don't get paid for this, in fact you
> could say they almost lose money by being on and using electricity,
> phone lines ect. (While its not alot of money it's still money going
> somewhere thats not in your pocket). Lots of times people just give
> negative feedback instead of anything that would help. People saying
> "Don't like it, Don't play it" have a quite valid point, no one is
> forcing you to play the guild. If you want Thief guild to be back in
> tune the best thing to do is to either play it as it is or to
> experiment with other guilds and be patient to the wiz's who are
> usualy busy working on new things for us.

P.S. Something I forgot that also is quite useful, learn to code and
become a wiz. :) 

-----------------

poster: Litho
subject: >>>Rogues
date: Thu Apr 18 22:19:21 2002

but you smell

-----------------

poster: Daneel
subject: >>>>Rogues
date: Fri Apr 19 00:44:25 2002

On Thu Apr 18 22:11:54 2002 Tektor wrote post #37:
> On Thu Apr 18 22:05:57 2002 Tektor wrote post #36:
> > ... If you want Thief guild to be back in
> > tune the best thing to do is to either play it as it is or to
> > experiment with other guilds and be patient to the wiz's who are
> > usualy busy working on new things for us.
> 
> P.S. Something I forgot that also is quite useful, learn to code and
> become a wiz. :) 

One of the big problems with thief is, as Zif said, that the whole idea of
the guild just doesn't work on a mud where we don't allow things like PK 
and stealing from other players.  What this means is, while the guild 
_could_ simply be tuned, it would be done in light of just having another
type of fighter-like guild.  People who want that can just go be a fig,
with no real loss of fun.  To be properly tuned, the tree needs ideas,
and a lot of them.

So, as a suggestion to any thieves out there who want something done 
with the guild, brainstorm.  Brainstorm a lot.  If you can come up with
really good ideas of what to do with the guild, you're more likely to 
find someone willing to implement them than if you just say, "fix this".
Though I would encourage discussion, here or (probably preferably) on 
a thieves channel you make, if one person can collect all the ideas, 
and edit them into a usable form, provided the ideas are good, you may
find more reception to more complete ideas for this guild.

As I said, though, that's largely because of the unique position of 
the guild of not fitting in, so don't start just trying this with 
every guild under creation :-)

               -Daneel

-----------------

poster: Zifnab
subject: >>>>>Rogues
date: Fri Apr 19 02:32:19 2002

> 
> So, as a suggestion to any thieves out there who want something done 
> with the guild, brainstorm.  Brainstorm a lot.  If you can come up with
> really good ideas of what to do with the guild, you're more likely to 
> find someone willing to implement them than if you just say, "fix this".
> Though I would encourage discussion, here or (probably preferably) on 
> a thieves channel you make, if one person can collect all the ideas, 
> and edit them into a usable form, provided the ideas are good, you may
> find more reception to more complete ideas for this guild.
> 
> As I said, though, that's largely because of the unique position of 
> the guild of not fitting in, so don't start just trying this with 
> every guild under creation :-)
> 
>                -Daneel

Just wanted to add to this, lets keep in mind that it
also needs to fit into the theme of the mud.  The original
design of the guild was designed around player-vs-player conflict.

We have moved away from that as a mud, so please dont 
make suggestions of that nature.
**

-----------------

poster: Ronin
subject: ideas
date: Fri Apr 19 02:33:46 2002

If we have ideas etc who should they be mailed to? should they just
be posted on here or?

-Ronin

-----------------

poster: Dram
subject: >ideas
date: Fri Apr 19 03:51:16 2002

On Fri Apr 19 02:33:46 2002 Ronin wrote post #41:
> If we have ideas etc who should they be mailed to? should they just
> be posted on here or?
> 
> -Ronin
mail them to guilds, i dont know if anyone other then me and sigwald
would like to work on guilds, but that is pretty much it.

Dram

-----------------

poster: Ertai
subject: Rogue idea
date: Fri Apr 19 05:39:55 2002

Rogues in many games have the ability to read magical scrolls and sometimes to
use dark magic.  Though they can't use it as well as a magic-user,
their spells
often came in handy.  The current incarnation of thieves are
ep-based attacks that
do a lot of damage quickly.  Perhaps a new incarnation could have spells that 
would poison or somewhat weaken enemies.  Not very damaging in short
term but do
a lot of damage over the long term.  Just a idea.  -- Ertai.

-----------------

poster: Daneel
subject: >ideas
date: Fri Apr 19 06:00:29 2002

On Fri Apr 19 02:33:46 2002 Ronin wrote post #41:
> If we have ideas etc who should they be mailed to? should they just
> be posted on here or?
> 
> -Ronin
Actually, I would suggest not mailing it immediately.  Discuss it 
first with other interested parties, get a bunch of ideas together,
and try to make them a coherent whole.  _Then_ mail it to guilds :-)

        -Daneel

-----------------

poster: Ertai
subject: Thief guild ideas.
date: Fri Apr 19 07:07:14 2002

Guild: Thief
Idea: Nimbleness, trickery, and clever use of the dagger.
Skills :
Level 1: Stab.
Level 3: Discerning eye.  Thief gets a bonus to charisma for selling goods.
Level 5: Nimble feet.  Bonus to dodging.
Level 6: Value item.  Use at an item to know what it will sell for in a shop.
Level 7: Doublehit.
Lever 9: Dodge.
Level 10: Silent Walk.  Aggro monsies don't get entry hits while active.

Guild: Magical pilferers.
Idea: Thieves learn the basics of magical robbery.
Level 1: Spell - Fencing.  This spell sends items to a shop and
fences thems for a better price.
Level 3: Spell - Dark Heal.  This spell only works in dark areas. 
Heals like cure light wounds.
Not usable during combat.
Level 6: Spell - Whispers of the Dark.  Breaks concentration of
victim.  Only dark areas. 
Level 8: Spell - Strength of darkness.  Only usable in dark areas. 
Gives a strength boost 
for the duration of the spell.  Not stackable.
Level 9: Skill - Mastery of Dark Magic.  Affects all spells in guild.
Level 10: Spell - Dark Bolt.  Unholy damage spell.  Similiar to Chi Bolt.

Just some ideas from Ertai.  Let me know what you think.

-----------------

poster: Ertai
subject: My guild idea
date: Fri Apr 19 07:35:53 2002

If you like my guild idea and can think of better ways in theme to
make thief a better guild tree.  Send me a mail or talk to me online
and I'll write them down.  I will submit the best ones i get to this
news group two weeks from now (approx.).  I have ideas for the whole
tree including an omnicron and a guild item.  Any ideas you have
would be just great.  Thanks.  Ertai.

-----------------

poster: Dram
subject: >My guild idea
date: Fri Apr 19 07:46:35 2002

On Fri Apr 19 07:35:53 2002 Ertai wrote post #46:
> If you like my guild idea and can think of better ways in theme to
> make thief a better guild tree.  Send me a mail or talk to me online
> and I'll write them down.  I will submit the best ones i get to this
> news group two weeks from now (approx.).  I have ideas for the whole
> tree including an omnicron and a guild item.  Any ideas you have
> would be just great.  Thanks.  Ertai.
I dont care if you post here, but at least for me, i would prefere
if you mailed this to guilds or myself also.

Dram


*

-----------------

poster: Sigwald
subject: >>Rogues
date: Fri Apr 19 08:50:20 2002

On Thu Apr 18 13:44:24 2002 Balinor wrote post #29:
> "If you don't like them, don't play them" Uhh, is this what the mud
> is about now?
> Wizzies don't want to balance guilds so you just say play something else?
> I liked rogue alot and played it for some time, but you can see a
> pattern here...
> People play woodsman because it's a guild alot more powerful than ma
> or rogue or knight etc.
> I think many would play rogue if it was made equal in power.

Then feel free to move your ass and code stuff instead of whining
at people. I'm getting extremly bored with people that think
wizards are just useful tool that can be pressured into doing
whatever a player wants.
This being said, you just made my ignore list, that will help
reduce the spam in news.

-----------------

poster: Balinor
subject: >>>Rogues
date: Fri Apr 19 09:17:22 2002

First of all, i am not whining. You yourself once said on a channel
that you don't even want to look into rogues. So i thought i'd
remind about that ;)
-Bal the ignored one for no reason

-----------------

poster: Balinor
subject: My posts
date: Fri Apr 19 09:20:07 2002

Hi all, just gonna apologize my harsh sounding posts, but they were
only meant to get you people discuss about rogue situation.
And i succeeded on that, thank you :)
-Balalalalalalalaaa

-----------------

poster: Fox
subject: >Rogues
date: Fri Apr 19 09:36:47 2002

On Thu Apr 18 12:50:21 2002 Sigwald wrote post #28:
> I'm probably not going to close it, but then again I'm not going
> to work on it for quite some time if ever. So basically the status
> is quite clear, bards are complete and running, thieves are not
> and probably won't be for quite some time. So quit whining about
> thief changes, if you don't like them, don't play them.
> As Bigg stated, some people wanna be thieves whatever so I don't really
> see a point in closing it at the moment. 
How I see this problem is litterally jacked, Sigwald. You've been
able to do quite a bit of work for a new guild structure, but don't
do anything about an old one, which I know there are many players
that really like the Thief guild tree. I think it rawked, but as of
now, being worth a lot more than req's for the guild which
litterally tops off at near lvl 70 bites. I know it may seem harsh
coming off like this, but, there are many other guilds that have
been trudged along to make the mud more enjoyable, a few players are
in the Thief guild tree and think it's ok, as Biggs said, he has put
in some good gold, and experience(not quite like gaining like, but
playing right) into that guild. but, anyways, lost my train of
thought of what else I was gonna say, oh well...

-----------------

poster: Mixer
subject: >>Rogues
date: Fri Apr 19 11:05:05 2002

Fundamental problem here is that unlike cleric and other guilds
that had somebody take on the project and completely re-design
the guild tree, nobody has EVER come up with a viable rogue guild
tree to fix the problems in the current one.

Thief seems to be a guild that just creates useless whining.

WAAH fix this, xxx guild got fixed why not this???

If somebody actually puts the hard time in and puts together
a workable guild tree that is in theme and fits in with
the other guilds, you never know what might be done.  The IDEAS
behind a guild are really most of the hard part.

-----------------

poster: Tranquil
subject: >>>Rogues
date: Fri Apr 19 15:57:01 2002

On Fri Apr 19 11:05:05 2002 Mixer wrote post #52:
> Fundamental problem here is that unlike cleric and other guilds
> that had somebody take on the project and completely re-design
> the guild tree, nobody has EVER come up with a viable rogue guild
> tree to fix the problems in the current one.
> 
> Thief seems to be a guild that just creates useless whining.
> 
> WAAH fix this, xxx guild got fixed why not this???
> 
> If somebody actually puts the hard time in and puts together
> a workable guild tree that is in theme and fits in with
> the other guilds, you never know what might be done.  The IDEAS
> behind a guild are really most of the hard part.

In essence, I tend to agree with Mixer's comment here, but there are
those that believe that for thief and its specialisations to become
useful, there will need to be more work done than just to come up
with ideas and skills to match. Areas will need to be worked on for
such ideas as lock picking (and no, I neither suggest nor support
the idea of lockpicking working in player castles), trap detection
and disarming, abilities to find and make use of 'alternative
entrances', as I like to call them, and so on.

One of the problems I see with this tactic though, it the lack of
real combat here, which in itself isnt a problem, but with the way
xp is earned here.. Somehow I don't think there are more than one or
two players that would play thief for its non-combat stuff alone.
People would like to earn a bit of xp in addition to the other
stuff, which is why I have always supported xp earning without the
need for combat (such as the xp reward for rev that healers have).


-----------------

poster: Dram
subject: >>>>Rogues
date: Fri Apr 19 18:58:59 2002

I had been trying to work on thieves for a while, does that mean i
took up that project. NO. There are insufficient guild ideas for
rogue, you guys want to see it redone, move your asses and mail some
ideas this way, real ideas, ideas that work for this mud. I have
about 1 guild that i have been working on that whenever i remember
what i was doing i will try to finish, but that doesnt mean i have
the guild tree done. SEND SOME IDEAS.

Dram

P.S. We are not your bitches.

-----------------

poster: Bigglesworth
subject: ideas
date: Fri Apr 19 22:48:04 2002

back in the day(few months ago) when I was active before school
caught up with me once again, I had a thief or rogue channel with
the main thieves at that time, wrote down a crap load of ideas and
did dick with them..as I will now try to find those pages of
notes..
Thinking realistically here guys, for the thieves involved,
personally, I don't expect to see immediate changes, and you
shouldn't either. WIth the backstab stuff, tough shit. Live with
it.
They're right about ideas being the hardest part of the process.. A
few words to Tranquil, been talking to Nightfall lately, eh?
I'm not looking for any flames here, but thieves are a little in the
past...maybe that is an understatement, but oh well. 

-----------------

poster: Wildchild
subject: >>>Rogues
date: Sat Apr 20 05:26:45 2002

On Fri Apr 19 08:50:20 2002 Sigwald wrote post #48:
> On Thu Apr 18 13:44:24 2002 Balinor wrote post #29:
> > "If you don't like them, don't play them" Uhh, is this what the mud
> > is about now?
> > Wizzies don't want to balance guilds so you just say play something else?
> > I liked rogue alot and played it for some time, but you can see a
> > pattern here...
> > People play woodsman because it's a guild alot more powerful than ma
> > or rogue or knight etc.
> > I think many would play rogue if it was made equal in power.
> 
> Then feel free to move your ass and code stuff instead of whining
> at people. I'm getting extremly bored with people that think
> wizards are just useful tool that can be pressured into doing
> whatever a player wants.
> This being said, you just made my ignore list, that will help
> reduce the spam in news.

I'm not really sure that the whole "get off your ass and code it"
idea works too well. I mean, we have how many builders now? And how
many are seriously going to be allowed to become builders just so
they're allowed to code guilds?

People need to work out serious, usable ideas that are well thought
out and fit with the theme of the mud, as well as trying to be
original and not step on the toes of other guilds... the latter is
probably the hardest part considering how many trees already
overlap.

-WC

-----------------

poster: Uno
subject: >>>>Rogues
date: Sat Apr 20 06:38:48 2002

On Sat Apr 20 05:26:45 2002 Wildchild wrote post #56:
> On Fri Apr 19 08:50:20 2002 Sigwald wrote post #48:
> > On Thu Apr 18 13:44:24 2002 Balinor wrote post #29:
> > > "If you don't like them, don't play them" Uhh, is this what the mud
> > > is about now?
> > > Wizzies don't want to balance guilds so you just say play something
else?
> > > I liked rogue alot and played it for some time, but you can see a
> > > pattern here...
> > > People play woodsman because it's a guild alot more powerful than ma
> > > or rogue or knight etc.
> > > I think many would play rogue if it was made equal in power.
> > 
> > Then feel free to move your ass and code stuff instead of whining
> > at people. I'm getting extremly bored with people that think
> > wizards are just useful tool that can be pressured into doing
> > whatever a player wants.
> > This being said, you just made my ignore list, that will help
> > reduce the spam in news.
> 
> I'm not really sure that the whole "get off your ass and code it"
> idea works too well. I mean, we have how many builders now? And how
> many are seriously going to be allowed to become builders just so
> they're allowed to code guilds?
> 
> People need to work out serious, usable ideas that are well thought
> out and fit with the theme of the mud, as well as trying to be
> original and not step on the toes of other guilds... the latter is
> probably the hardest part considering how many trees already
> overlap.
> 
> -WC
they also need to understand that ferris wheels spin only
counter clockwise and radishes form concentric circles.
but be careful not to cross the moat wearing only galoshes
and a sailor hat.
secondly, basset hounds got long ears.
get off was a song by prince. baby.
if you want me to stay, i'll be around the way, the kind
hearted foil ripped my sneakers and i left them
on the wet black concrete.
fin.

-----------------

poster: Nightfall
subject: >>>>>Rogues
date: Sat Apr 20 08:38:42 2002

On Fri Apr 19 18:58:59 2002 Dram wrote post #54:
> I had been trying to work on thieves for a while, does that mean i
> took up that project. NO. There are insufficient guild ideas for
> rogue, you guys want to see it redone, move your asses and mail some
> ideas this way, real ideas, ideas that work for this mud. I have
> about 1 guild that i have been working on that whenever i remember
> what i was doing i will try to finish, but that doesnt mean i have
> the guild tree done. SEND SOME IDEAS.
> 
> Dram
> 
> P.S. We are not your bitches.

    I have tried to stay out of this crap 'discussion' because I
thought the problem was more than obvious.  But after reading more
crap I will attempt to put my opinion in perspective.
    There are not insufficent ideas for rogues on this mud.  There
is limited support in the current mudlib for rogues (read: as peope
want them).
    I 100% disagree with the voiced opinion of the admin that this
mud is too old to change.  Muds that don't change die.  Muds are
about 100% certain on two things.  It's a game that supports interaction 
with more than one person (ie multi), and it will always be adding
shit.  A conversion should never be nix'd as an option.  Removing
options limits everything.  I am disapointed that things aren't
changing here faster, but obviously I haven't given up hope.  I hope
the lack of time, people, PLANNING will change.  
The bottom line is this:  The mud needs to change and grow.  It 
doesn't matter in who's 'grand scheme' it grows with.  But if ideas 
here are shot down without decent comments and critizism why would 
the players bother to post or for that matter wanna try and code?  
Too many feel it's uselss already and just talk amonst themselves
about ideas and have been ridiculed for this.

  -NF


-----------------

poster: Zifnab
subject: >>>>>>Rogues
date: Sat Apr 20 14:51:17 2002

> about 100% certain on two things.  It's a game that supports interaction 
> with more than one person (ie multi), and it will always be adding
> shit.  A conversion should never be nix'd as an option.  Removing
> options limits everything.  I am disapointed that things aren't
> changing here faster, but obviously I haven't given up hope.  I hope
> the lack of time, people, PLANNING will change.  
> The bottom line is this:  The mud needs to change and grow.  It 
> doesn't matter in who's 'grand scheme' it grows with.  But if ideas 
> here are shot down without decent comments and critizism why would 
> the players bother to post or for that matter wanna try and code?  
> Too many feel it's uselss already and just talk amonst themselves
> about ideas and have been ridiculed for this.
> 
>   -NF
> 
The mud has changed over the past year it has not stayed stagnant, 
and they were fairly significant changes.

What will not change is the fundamental design of the mud, changing
the way exp is earned for everything is a fundamental change and will
not happen, its not that hard to understand.